tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post7020764507525281284..comments2023-10-01T04:31:45.847-07:00Comments on Journaling For Growth: Satan's Relationship With Godjeleasurehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-55363784109247649002008-07-27T18:11:00.000-07:002008-07-27T18:11:00.000-07:00GGM, Thanks for commenting. You have understood ...GGM,<BR/> Thanks for commenting. You have understood everything I said correctly. A thought I voiced to my wife on Satan's destruction is in line with what you have stated.<BR/> Yes, for God to punish Satan for doing his job would be ungracious. So, In realyzing this myself, if you look beneath my reply to Vicki, who is my wife, I did consider this. And do need to go back to the text to amend it.<BR/> What I was stating (and was not clear) is that Satan may have assumed his role to have come to an end when God judges man in the final judgement. I do believe that God would be ungracious for destroying Satan for doing his job. It is not that I am stating that God will destroy Satan as "punishment" as you have stated for doing his job. I am stating that Satan is assuming he will be destroyed as his purpose will run out when God judges man in the final judgement. And so Satan, unnecessarily revolted, as he concludes that he may be destroyed when there is no need for a tempter. And since he revolted, he will be destroyed.<BR/><BR/> GGM also stated,<BR/> " As an aside (and an important one, I believe), I also think your suggestion does harm to the importance of Jesus' temptation by Satan in the wildnerness. I believe that we must view Satan here (as well as in Genesis) as the "fallen" angel who's own will (not God's) is to destroy Man".<BR/><BR/> My reply:<BR/> I do not consider it to harm the importance of Satan having tempted Jesus. For Jesus had to be tempted just as you and I are tempted in order to be the "Perfect Lamb of God". He had to face temptation as you and I do. And thus, defeating it, is one of the qualifications for Jesus to be the 'Perfect Lamb of God'. I say, one of the qualifications, because Jesus also had to fulfill every aspect of the law, as well. Right on down to the details you and I do not see. Such as, assuming the role of a High Priest on the eve before the Day of Atonement and cleansing the Temple. <BR/> Thanks for helping me to formulate some necessary changes to "Satan's Relationship with God".<BR/>I will be looking at your blog again, after I catch up on some things.<BR/>Jimjeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-78846675648452221842008-07-27T16:55:00.000-07:002008-07-27T16:55:00.000-07:00Interesting idea, but I think the "classical" view...Interesting idea, but I think the "classical" view still has the best Scriptural support--that Satan was already "fallen" when in the Garden. In your post you suggest that Satan might not have been "fallen" during the temptation episode in Eden; that he was only doing his job (what he was created for) and only later, at some point in time, decided to rebell because he realized that his "usefulness" would someday be ending. In this scenerio, Satan would be believing that God would "punish" him with "destruction" (everlasting punishment) simply for doing his job. I don't think this can be supported Biblically.<BR/><BR/>Everywhere in the Bible, God is telling His creation (primarily Man) to "be who you are", i.e. to be what He created us to be. He created the world and everything in it "good" and "very good"; therefore, if we (including the creation) would simply fulfill our created design, then all would continue to be "good". But, through Man's rebellion, estrangement has fractured every relationship in creation; sin now reigns throughout the created order and we must be redeemed to be authentically human again (but this is off the subject :-).<BR/><BR/>But if, as you suggest might be a possibility, that Satan was simply fulfilling his created design, doing the very thing that he was created to do, then God would be considered ungracious (at best) to punish him for fulfilling his created function.<BR/><BR/>You suggest that Satan (Lucifer) might have been created as a "lying spirit" and as a "tempter" so that when there is no need for this anymore, Satan will be destroyed; as if God would punish someone for "being" who (or what) he was created to be. I don't think this conclusion has Biblical support. I beleive it is much more harmonious with Scripture to view Satan as being created "good" (as with all the angels) and as having led a rebellion before his being cast down to earth; that Satan has already been judged by God before having the opportunity to lead His prized creation (Man) astray. <BR/><BR/>In my estimation, it poses no problem at all that Satan still has access to the throne room of God throughout redemptive history. God is still sovereign over all things and Satan still does God's bidding as a created being under the subjection and rule of God. The fact that Satan still has to answer to God is a great encouragement for us who sometimes think (wrongly) that Satan is free to do whatever he pleases--it just 'aint so. :-)<BR/><BR/>I believe that the Scripture teaches that Satan, as with all the angels, was created with the intention of serving God for eternity. Satan rebelled and was cast down to earth where he has continued to try to lead a rebellion against God using Man as his (satan's) servant. If Satan had truly fulfilled his purpose, he would have continued to lead the hosts of heaven in worship of God Most High.<BR/><BR/>As an aside (and an important one, I believe), I also think your suggestion does harm to the importance of Jesus' temptation by Satan in the wildnerness. I believe that we must view Satan here (as well as in Genesis) as the "fallen" angel who's own will (not God's) is to destroy Man. Jesus, as the second Adam, succeeded where Adam (and later Israel) failed. He was confronted by the "evil" one (not a being that is simply doing his job) and was victorious! I think this episode loses much of its force and meaning if Satan, in the Garden, wasn't trying to thwart God's plan as the "fallen" enemy of God and Man. The main point in Jesus' temptation, I believe, is the fact that He was confronted by the same enemy as Adam (and later Israel) but was victorious to prove and secure Satan's defeat.<BR/><BR/>Even though I disagree that your suggestion has biblical merit, I do appreciate the opportunity to interact with another idea, another way of thinking about something. This is a good why to sharpen our understanding--or to even come to a different understanding. We must be confronted with ideas that we don't share in order to strengthen what we believe, or to "see" something that we've missed for so long. Again...I don't think your suggestion is biblically defensible, but I appreciate the opportunity to interact with it.<BR/><BR/>As long we continue to know and believe that Christ is Savior and Lord, we can converse about things with the goal that our faith in Him would be strengthened.<BR/><BR/>I look forward to reading more of your material.Great Googly Moogly!https://www.blogger.com/profile/13348645248449285718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-25741055395678507242008-07-25T17:00:00.000-07:002008-07-25T17:00:00.000-07:00Jim, I am tagging you to post six random things ab...Jim, I am tagging you to post six random things about yourself. Go to my page for the rules. Have fun! <BR/> AngelaAngelahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16863689063737934494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-27828202075560959272008-07-25T03:34:00.000-07:002008-07-25T03:34:00.000-07:00Hi Jeff, Thanks for stopping by and commenting. ...Hi Jeff,<BR/> Thanks for stopping by and commenting. <BR/> Just to clarify; my opinion here is not from the perspective of Satan leading a revolt prior to the fall of man. Otherwise, the article would just explain what most people already feel to be the correct chronology.<BR/> What I am stating is Satan's revolt, based on his becoming aware of his usefulness running out. I have reasoned Satan's understanding that he will no longer be needed as a 'tempter' when God judges man for the last time. So he revolts in an effort to not face destruction for not being able to fulfill the purpose he was created for. <BR/>You've stated the traditional view of Satan's revolt being prior to the fall of man. Most people already view Satan's revolt as having proceeding the fall of man. <BR/> You don't have to agree with me. I just noticed your opinion was sited without regard to the perspective I have written my opinion from. I usually write on issues that do not square with me. My intent is to challenge the status quo.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-545022460360317822008-07-24T19:12:00.000-07:002008-07-24T19:12:00.000-07:00So, why does Lucifer make this statement as it is ...<I>So, why does Lucifer make this statement as it is recorded in Isaiah 14:13-14?<BR/>13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.<BR/><BR/>I believe it is because Lucifer has had a glimpse of what the outcome is for man who reject God, and man who have been atoned for. For those of the human family who do not seek to fulfill the purpose they are created for, they will be destroyed.<BR/><BR/>Satan has come to the realization that his usefulness will run out with the end of time for Earth and Mankind. And what happens with something that does not serve God’s purposes. It is destroyed. God will no longer have a need for a ‘lying spirit’ or ‘tempter’. So, Satan says, I will lead a revolt. I will prove to God’s creation that I am higher than He. And I will sit on the Throne over all of God’s creation. However, God has already told us what the end will be.</I><BR/><BR/>Satan cannot see into the future, nor is he omniscient. Therefore, when he led a rebellion in Heaven, man had not yet fallen (nor, presumably, had been created). Therefore, Lucifer/Satan could not know what would happen to mankind.<BR/><BR/>Your suggestion that Lucifer was predestined/elected by God to cause evil is an interesting one. Lucifer, as all creatures, was created to glorify God. And, even as Satan, he glorifies God, as you suggest, because God's mercy and power are displayed as a result.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-64333880731326712312008-07-24T19:01:00.000-07:002008-07-24T19:01:00.000-07:00In the above passages from Job and First Kings, we...<I>In the above passages from Job and First Kings, we clearly see Satan having access to the Throne of God; but why? From our limited perspective, this would seem a mystery of God to allow this guy, who tempted His creation to fall out of a functional relationship with God. And yet, here he is.</I><BR/><BR/>Pharaoh allowed Moses access to stand before him in his court, even when Moses was bringing God's judgment against Pharaoh. Solomon allowed people to come before his throne. It has been common with earthly kings. Why should it not also be with God?Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-76171081427446980952008-07-24T18:56:00.000-07:002008-07-24T18:56:00.000-07:00Therefore, someone, if not many have probably prec...<I>Therefore, someone, if not many have probably preceded my line of thinking, which by the way, does not make me correct.</I><BR/><BR/>Methinks that you are becoming more humble, Jim. That is commendable.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-28184116814581395142008-07-24T17:58:00.000-07:002008-07-24T17:58:00.000-07:00Vicki, Hi hun. I miss you, also. Right, we have...Vicki,<BR/> Hi hun. I miss you, also.<BR/> Right, we have very little to worry about as truly born again believers. However, it is in our efforts to help people who do not know The Lord where we will face adversity. <BR/> American Family Association was discussing how a particular Islamic Country (I can't remember which one or how many) has always murdered any woman who was found to have converted from Islam to any religion. And the courts have given the death penalty to anyone for the same thing except men. The men of Islam can appeal a death sentence. The report on American Family Radio was that now, there is no appeal. Anyone being found guilty of apostacy will be murdered. And the same for anyone using the INTERNET to proselytize will also be murdered.<BR/> Another thought occured to me concerning Lucifer's occupation. I also think Lucifer may have jumped to some hasty conclusions for what his fait would be after time has ended. There was not a need to revolt. He may have been given other duties.<BR/> Now, I am aware that this is all speculative. So, I'm just taking what I know to be true and attempting to fill in the gaps with speculation.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-49499580092758306552008-07-24T17:35:00.000-07:002008-07-24T17:35:00.000-07:00I enjoy your thoughts so much. Lucifer was and co...I enjoy your thoughts so much. Lucifer was and continues to play out his role as tempter. And it is through this adversity that humans can decide to edify the Lord. <BR/>Lucifer fell when he decided to become like God. (Don't people do that too!) And this is ultimate condemnation. <BR/>There is nothng here to laugh about. Maybe what we believe, and what the Bible teaches is not true. if that is so we have lost very little. However, if this is all true, it is extremely serious.<BR/>I miss you.Vickihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03967889254766964533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-623755850660124082008-07-23T13:10:00.000-07:002008-07-23T13:10:00.000-07:00Hi Kait, Thanks for leaving a comment. I posted ...Hi Kait,<BR/> Thanks for leaving a comment. I posted a bogus link with an 'html' tag and the end of the code. So, that link would not work in the first comment I sent.<BR/> So, I erased it and sent a new comment with a functional link. I noticed it is difficult to see where my link is. It is the title of my manuscript Love One Another. It will underline itself when you place your pointer over it.<BR/>Jimjeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-69907976453954453992008-07-23T12:10:00.000-07:002008-07-23T12:10:00.000-07:00O.k. Russ, I think this one will work. Satan's R...O.k. Russ, I think this one will work. <A HREF="http://deityquest-jeleasure.blogspot.com/2008/07/satans-relationship-with-god.html" REL="nofollow">Satan's Relationship with God</A>jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-92170358880672598362008-07-23T11:13:00.000-07:002008-07-23T11:13:00.000-07:00Thanks, Jim.As God wills all things within Biblica...Thanks, Jim.<BR/><BR/>As God wills all things within Biblical and Reformed theology, Satan is an instrument of God. But, Satan is not forced to commit evil and does this with a degree of freedom.Dr. Russell Norman Murrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06703130625190233670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-31615288240746563122008-07-23T07:40:00.000-07:002008-07-23T07:40:00.000-07:00I wish I had interesting remarks to make on your p...I wish I had interesting remarks to make on your posts but I must say I am not well versed in religion. I have a more relaxed approach I'd say haha.Kaithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17436299156456984804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-23096491940039094622008-07-23T03:08:00.000-07:002008-07-23T03:08:00.000-07:00Hey Russ, Your comment surprised me. When you sa...Hey Russ,<BR/> Your comment surprised me. When you said you read the piece at this address, <A HREF="Satan's%20Relationship%20With%20God" REL="nofollow">name it</A> <BR/> I thought you would be more likely to comment on my suggestion that Satan is an instrument of God. And he revolted because he knows he will soon not have a purpose. If he does not have a purpose, (namely to create adversity) he will be destroyed.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1869095112313860622.post-64319714400009931522008-07-22T21:19:00.000-07:002008-07-22T21:19:00.000-07:00From Revelation 20:10, Satan will be thrown into t...From Revelation 20:10, Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire, and punished forever. This seems to indicate conscious punishment. I can accept the fact that he will be destroyed in the sense of made powerless and his kingdom destroyed.<BR/><BR/>Russ:)Dr. Russell Norman Murrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06703130625190233670noreply@blogger.com